Shane Hunt:
Hello everyone, and welcome to this edition of the Marketing Insights podcast. I'm Shane Hunt, Dean of the College of Business and Michael C. Ruettgers Professor of Marketing at Idaho State University. And I'm thrilled to welcome my guest today, founder of Strategy Zoo, Morgan McKell.
Morgan, welcome to the show.
Morgan McKell:
Oh, thanks for having me, Shane. I'm so excited to be here with you.
Shane Hunt:
Well, Morgan is doing all kinds of amazing things in the marketing space, and I wanted to talk specifically about some really important changes, I think, to the way that algorithms are impacting all of us as marketers. So wanted to ask to start with and just say, how do you think social media algorithms have shifted the importance of follower count, which is something a lot of times I hear marketers talk about, and what impact does that have on brands and content creators today?
Morgan McKell:
Okay, great question. Two parts to answer this. The first one, the algorithm has changed so much that it's so good right now. And what I mean by that is I see content from creators and people that I like to follow or that I like to consume their content I should say that I don't even follow. If I'm on YouTube or Twitter, X, or Instagram, I'm seeing their content so much I'm not inclined to follow them because it feels like I follow them.
Shane Hunt:
Right. Absolutely. I see that. I noticed that myself.
Morgan McKell:
Yeah. So right now you said you see that in the marketing world. Well, I don't think the follower count actually really matters right now, it's one metric of many that marketers could or brands could follow or take a look at. But follower count right now is harder to gain, and I'm seeing that time and time again.
Shane Hunt:
Are you seeing anything with your clients that you work with, Morgan? I've got to think that there's probably some resistance to that because I've seen so many clients who think only in terms of follower count.
Morgan McKell:
Yeah. I have to reframe their brain sometimes and say, "Hey, listen, it's not just follower account, it's engagement, it's views." And the most important thing that I think that you can have as a metric is, Dan Koe is a great guy that I like to follow, he says, "De-platform them." And what that means is, get them into your newsletter, get them into a digital download, get them into your community. And so rather than just going off follower account, how many downloads did you get? How many people went to your website? How many people joined your newsletter? De-platform them from that one social media account. And so that's another metric that you should be watching and you should be striving for, honestly.
Shane Hunt:
No, I love that. I love that way of thinking about de-platforming. Well, let me ask you then this, Morgan, as a follow-up. If follower numbers then today for a company, for a brand are becoming less relevant, what should brands and creators focus on to build a lasting connection with their audience?
Morgan McKell:
Yeah, I think it goes right back into that. I will be the first person to say, do not chase the algorithm. The algorithm is so good, it will do its job.
Shane Hunt:
And I think that's great advice for young marketers. I think that's a great piece of advice.
Morgan McKell:
Yeah. I am always wary of advertisers or marketers who say, "Hey, you need to post on a Tuesday afternoon at 5:00 PM." It's like, no. What they need to focus on is creating valuable, insightful, entertaining content that resonates with their target demographic. And the follower count will actually follow that. It's a natural byproduct.
Shane Hunt:
But don't chase that. Don't chase that algorithm.
Morgan McKell:
Do not chase the algorithm. You need to focus on speaking to your target demographic and creating that connection. And like we said, de-platform them. Invite them into your community. Not just posting, but inviting them, "Hey, if you like this content, sign up for my newsletter where I do more insights." Sign up or get this digital download, buy this digital download, get them into your ecosystem. I like to call it an ecosystem.
Shane Hunt:
Absolutely.
Morgan McKell:
And not just that one touch point on maybe Instagram.
Shane Hunt:
Well then I guess, and this kind of builds on that, but if I'm talking to a brand or a client, what strategies would you recommend to them to increase visibility and engagement in a world where followers are no longer the main metric? Are you saying it should be, how many digital downloads do you get? Or how many people are subscribed to our newsletter? Is that more of what you think?
Morgan McKell:
Yeah. Well two things. So I was just having this conversation with a client of mine, it's all about distribution. So rather than thinking about follower account, think about how you can get your message or your product or your service or your post to multiple people, a bigger audience. I think leverage is a big thing. You can build your own audience, but leverage other people's networks. You should be doing collaborations together with other brands that have a very similar type of audience with you. So when that person tags you or does a collaboration with you, you have the audience for it. I would think about distribution as a better metric than did we get a follower from that post? Did our follower count go up this month? No, but we were seen at a way bigger audience because of distribution this month.
Shane Hunt:
I get a sense, and I've had a couple of people say this to me in the last few months, I get a sense that marketing collaborations are more important today than ever before. Would you agree with that?
Morgan McKell:
More than ever. More than ever. The strategy too, another strategy that I like seeing is... Because people are less inclined to follow a brand or a company right now because the algorithm's so good. A strategy that I've seen that works really well is saying, "Hey, this week we're going to release a tip of the day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, follow along." And in your head you're like, "Oh, I don't want to miss those." So they do a series now, "Hey, every day this week we're giving out $100 gift card." "Hey, this week we're going to highlight a client testimony every day, follow along." And so that's a really good strategy to really get people into your ecosystem as well.
But yes, those collaborations for the audience-wise, yes, that we are seeing that more and more across the board. Big brands, small brands, they're collaborating because they're leveraging other people's audiences.
Shane Hunt:
No, and I think that's a huge thing. And I think that's something I would say as a marketing professor, I can tell you five years ago that was not nearly the discussion point and I don't think that we had our arms around what that looked like.
Morgan McKell:
I think business owners were guarded. They're like, "Oh, this is my brand."
Shane Hunt:
I don't want to tie it to something else and get into something that might turn out negative for us. They looked at it from a negative lens almost.
Morgan McKell:
Exactly. Like, "Hey, no, I'm guarded. This is what we're doing." And what you're seeing is more and more influencers, small business owners, they're collaborating, they're collaborating, and they have this awesome effort. I just saw a garage door company do a collaboration with a gutter repair company, and it's like, why didn't they do that five years ago?
Shane Hunt:
100%.
Morgan McKell:
It makes so much sense.
Shane Hunt:
No, I think that's so great. And I think along those lines, when you talk about a garage door opening company, I think that social media so often we talk about has leveled the playing field. It's given smaller organizations, smaller companies, opportunities to cut through the clutter and reach people. And I kind of wanted to finish by asking in what ways do you think the algorithm and how that has changed has leveled the playing field for those smaller accounts, smaller brands, and what challenges has it introduced for those looking to grow their audience? If I'm that gutter company, if I'm gutter repair company, if I'm a small startup that we work with all the time, how has that changed?
Morgan McKell:
Yeah, yeah. Let's start with that first question, how has it leveled the playing field? If you would've told a marketer or an advertiser man 50 years ago, they could reach a potential audience of thousands up to millions with zero budget, they would've thought you were crazy. So it's really leveled the playing field because for just the cost of your time making amazing post, you can reach the masses. That's leveled the playing field.
The second one, with the challenge is of that question that we face right now with the follower count and smaller brands and how they're dealing with that, I think you don't need 10,000 people to follow you anymore to monetize. I'll use myself as an example. Right now I have like 1800 people on Instagram, I have a couple thousand on Facebook. It's not huge, but every time I post something as a digital download to say, "Hey, get my template." "Hey, get this. It's a free resource." It doesn't get 1,000 views. It doesn't get 1,000 likes, but I got 50 to 100 downloads. So it really levels the playing field because it means, A, people are watching without a lot of engagement sometimes. But B, I don't need a huge audience. Those 50 to 100 people, if I get two or three clients from that, I'm going to be tickled pink.
Shane Hunt:
Such a great point.
Morgan McKell:
So it's really leveled the playing field. And I think people are wading... I think people or brands, small brands, businesses, influencers, are thinking, I need a huge following to monetize. Well, if you want to get monetized off of advertising and ad revenue, sure.
Shane Hunt:
A very different model, very different model.
Morgan McKell:
That's a very different model. But hey, if you invite them into your ecosystem and put them in an email campaign, baby, you're going to win.
Shane Hunt:
Oh Morgan, let me tell you something, there were so many great insights today. Thank you for joining us on this edition of the Marketing Insights. I encourage everybody to check out Strategy Zoo and the incredible work that Morgan's doing. Thank you, Morgan.
Morgan McKell:
Thank you for having me, Shane. So happy to be here.
Shane Hunt:
And thank you guys for listening to this edition of the Marketing Insights podcast. I'm Shane Hunt, can't wait to share again very soon. Have a great day.
